Mike Toussaint Sr. Director Analyst, Gartner

Is the Network Dead?

AI & ML
Still image of man with open arms and a sport coat presenting with a green and black background.

Toussaint: Fragile, complex networks are the enemies of business agility.

Mike Toussaint of Gartner joined us at AI in Action to deliver this message: The network is dead. In his talk, this industry thought leader discusses how Covid has driven a digital transformation for businesses, and how the network is at the core of that transformation. Ultimately, he says, the network as we have known it is unsustainable.

Listen as he shares his thoughts and expertise on the current digital transformation, where the new normal is consistent, secure delivery of business value –– anytime, anywhere, on any device, and at scale. An audience Q&A follows his presentation.  

Show more

You’ll learn

  • Why it’s so hard for network teams to talk about the business, applications, or users (hint: they are too busy putting out fires)

  • The top three current motivators for investing in AI or ML 

  • What the future state of the network looks like 

Who is this for?

Network Professionals Business Leaders

Host

Sudheer Matta Headshot
Sudheer Matta
Group VP, Products, Juniper Networks

Guest speakers

Mike Toussaint
Sr. Director Analyst, Gartner 
Transcript

0:00 well it's great to see everyone again

0:02 I'm Mike Toussaint I'm an analyst at

0:05 Gartner I'm the lead author on the wired

0:08 and wireless magic quadrant and I'm here

0:09 to deliver the message that the network

0:12 is dead

0:13 now that's an interesting message to

0:16 bring that I'm at a networking company

0:19 with an audience full of networkers but

0:21 I wanted to really Express the gravity

0:23 of where we are today it is so great to

0:26 see everyone in the faces

0:28 um back in person after all that we've

0:31 all been through and but everything has

0:33 changed and covered the pandemic has

0:36 been

0:37 both the worst thing and the best thing

0:40 at the same time and we're going to talk

0:42 through that because it's changed our

0:45 expectations of everything

0:47 it's been bad because most of us have

0:49 lost loved ones it's affected us but in

0:53 the same token it's been the most

0:56 prolific driver of digital

0:58 transformation for business and at that

1:01 core transformation is the network and

1:05 ultimately the network as you know it

1:08 can't support the way forward the

1:11 network is dead

1:13 and for those of you who admitted to

1:15 still have 3650s and 2960s on your

1:18 network

1:19 this resembles a lot of the networks we

1:22 see today

1:24 it's interesting I've always been in

1:26 networking throughout my entire career

1:28 and if we look at the state of the

1:30 network it's manually configured

1:33 it's hard it's going to do one thing

1:38 it's going to give you connectivity and

1:39 you think about it the network was

1:41 really made to do a lot of other things

1:43 besides provide connectivity

1:45 so it's always interesting anytime you

1:46 do a network project at the end of the

1:48 network project you get everything

1:50 connected

1:51 and you can ping everything and you're

1:54 done and your CIO or your CFO or your

1:58 CEO may ask well hey is it optimized for

2:00 my new Voiceover IP system

2:03 probably not

2:04 okay

2:05 um is it going to support my new

2:07 application well I'm not really sure

2:09 okay what about all of our users do we

2:12 do capacity testing do we know

2:13 everything we need to know

2:15 probably not and ultimately we see that

2:18 the way it's built

2:20 most of you are afraid to touch your

2:22 network

2:23 during non-maintenance windows and it's

2:25 funny because if we look at how the

2:27 network is built it's pretty brittle one

2:30 thing one setting one IP address

2:34 you plug in the wrong cable into the

2:37 wrong port on the switch and you can

2:38 bring down your entire network matter of

2:41 fact

2:42 for all of you engineers in the audience

2:43 who here's the question who has not

2:47 brought down their Networks

2:50 right exactly because I was going to

2:52 tell you if you raise your hand and you

2:53 have not please leave

2:55 because you are not a network engineer

2:58 it is a rite of passage for you to

3:00 destroy your entire network during

3:02 production hours

3:05 so your network moves packets

3:07 it doesn't really do much with

3:08 applications you can say well Mike Mike

3:10 Mike

3:12 we've done qos

3:14 have you now

3:15 you have because it's funny because

3:18 Cisco office order qos

3:21 you've probably spent a lot of money

3:22 trying to optimize your your

3:25 applications and your users voice has

3:28 got its own VLAN your printer's got its

3:30 own VLAN you've got a maybe a servicenow

3:32 VLAN you've got a uh a cloud VLAN and

3:36 it's all just there it doesn't

3:39 dynamically move if somebody wants to

3:41 change

3:42 talk about change right if you want to

3:45 change your network you're not going to

3:47 do it on the Fly because like I said

3:48 you'll probably break something so when

3:50 you get to the point where you want to

3:52 change something just to put a printer

3:54 on a network you got to change you got

3:56 to add vlans you've got to change IP

3:58 addresses in many cases you may have to

4:00 add another routing protocol you have to

4:02 do all kinds of crazy things and

4:04 ultimately we see that this means that

4:07 you as Network Engineers become very

4:09 inward facing you've heard it mentioned

4:12 that network teams are putting out fires

4:14 you come in at nine o'clock you're

4:16 putting out fires you leave at five

4:18 o'clock you're putting out fires you go

4:19 to training you can't even do training

4:22 because you get a call on your cell

4:24 phone the network is on fire

4:26 so it's like wait a minute this can't be

4:29 the way and this means that the network

4:31 teams can never face outwards you can

4:34 never talk about the business you can

4:36 never talk about the applications or the

4:38 users because you're busy trying to

4:41 manage the network

4:43 and ultimately we see that this costs

4:47 and this is real cost right this is not

4:48 just Mike Tucson saying well you should

4:51 be looking to transform your network

4:54 digital transformation

4:56 is sub-optimal or fails to the tune of

5:00 900 billion dollars per year

5:03 because in depart the network is not

5:06 ready to support that

5:08 so if we look at well what's expected

5:11 now

5:12 all of you have a new way forward a new

5:14 mantra it's a to deliver consistently

5:18 business value from any place at any

5:22 time on any device that's what you have

5:24 to do it's not a matter of well you know

5:27 I've got my land running well what about

5:29 your win well I got my Wan running what

5:31 about the wireless LAN well I've got

5:34 that running well what about security

5:35 you've got to do it all you've got to do

5:38 it from anywhere and we know that

5:39 ultimately if you don't what happens

5:42 well

5:43 if you don't have pervasive Wireless

5:45 people will leave

5:47 if you don't have a capability to have

5:49 people work from anywhere they will

5:52 leave your customers will leave

5:55 your profits will tank it's it's bad

5:57 trust me I work for Gartner we know

5:59 these things

6:03 um it's funny because one of the ironies

6:05 to all of this is that because of the

6:08 way we've always been doing things for

6:09 the last 30 years

6:11 we do things through maintenance windows

6:13 and I always laugh when it comes to

6:15 maintenance Windows you've heard me harp

6:16 on this maintenance windows

6:19 does your CEO know that he or she is

6:22 waiting for a maintenance window for a

6:24 change that's going to affect the

6:25 business your customers

6:28 work with maintenance windows

6:31 do your end users wait for maintenance

6:33 Windows they don't and then we can't do

6:36 this anymore so this we look at the

6:37 state of the network it's not just about

6:39 connectivity it's about visibility it's

6:41 about everything else and to do that you

6:44 have to have the ability to understand

6:46 what the network is doing what's on your

6:48 network you can't do that with the

6:49 existing tools so if we look at

6:52 everything you've been hearing about

6:53 today AI ML and everything else

6:56 automation

6:58 we look at a survey we had and one of

7:02 the top reasons to do this

7:05 is to improve customer experience

7:08 and at the end of the day this is what

7:09 we're all here for

7:10 the network is not about the network the

7:12 network is not just providing email and

7:14 all and all of that stuff the network is

7:16 about the business and the role of the

7:18 network is to get the hell out of the

7:20 way

7:21 so that you guys can do business so

7:23 Amazon could be Amazon so Tesla can make

7:26 EVS so the rest of you can do your

7:28 business that's what it's all about so

7:30 you have to be able to automate those

7:31 tasks you have to be able to have the

7:33 tools like Ai and ml that can look into

7:35 the network and correlate data at a

7:37 level that we cannot

7:39 we've been doing this for 20 years 30

7:41 years you're good as Network engineers

7:43 and Architects we get it but at this

7:45 point Ai and ml can do it better and it

7:47 can free you to do other things that you

7:49 should be doing

7:51 so we look at netops 2.0 as the way

7:54 forward it's an automation first

7:56 approach it's about deep Network

7:59 visibility application the ND user

8:02 analytics it's about using Ai and ml to

8:05 quickly correlate and fix those those

8:07 fires that you keep trying to put out

8:09 that you never do

8:10 I speak to so many customers

8:13 that have especially Wireless Right

8:15 Wireless is like doing voodoo it could

8:17 be anywhere at any time you know that

8:20 channels and channel widths and rssis

8:23 and everything else it could be anything

8:25 depending on floor and everything else

8:26 if you look at Ai and ML and those

8:28 capabilities

8:30 to really troubleshoot and deliver the

8:32 most optimal Network this is where you

8:34 need to be and then finally and this is

8:36 really important

8:37 we've been talking about technology it's

8:39 also about moving from network teams to

8:43 cross-functional teams we've been

8:45 talking about the end user and we've

8:47 been talking about business and we've

8:50 been talking about security those all

8:52 need to come in to that to build your

8:54 end-to-end solution because you can't do

8:55 it with just a network team working

8:58 alone now the security team working

8:59 alone or the application team working

9:01 alone

9:02 so this is what we want to we want to

9:03 build here this is the network of the

9:05 future the future State it's managed

9:08 from the cloud now it's funny

9:10 I get a lot of calls Mike you know that

9:12 that Cloud's scary it's it's very

9:14 dangerous

9:15 it's not

9:17 um moving to the cloud frees up so much

9:19 res so many resources

9:22 um and reduces Opex Ai and ml absolutely

9:25 a part of the network and we've been

9:27 talking about this we're not talking

9:28 about bandwidth we're not necessarily

9:30 talking about routing protocols Ai and

9:32 ml at a at this future state will be

9:35 able to automate the network at all

9:37 levels now granted I know I think

9:39 Tesla's in here somewhere

9:40 there is no true autopilot and if you

9:44 try to do it you know on you know just

9:46 automation no one has reached that point

9:48 yet

9:49 but it's coming we wrote a note a couple

9:52 of months back on the on the levels of

9:55 AI and ml automation

9:57 so we came up with a scale it's very

9:59 similar to self-driving cars zero

10:01 meaning no automation

10:04 to three meaning full automation the

10:06 truth is where the industry is today is

10:09 about two

10:10 and a 2 means that it can troubleshoot

10:14 it can do root cause analysis it can

10:16 understand patterns it can take really

10:19 obscure patterns on things going on in

10:22 the network and correlate it and really

10:23 give you good data so it does that well

10:25 we also see the the the way the network

10:28 is built

10:30 we want to start looking at the network

10:31 as a holistic end-to-end fabric not just

10:35 a bunch of things connected together not

10:38 just a router connected to another

10:39 router at layer 3 or switch connected to

10:42 another switch at Layer Two now we're

10:44 talking about listen do deploy your

10:46 layer through underlay and don't touch

10:47 it anymore

10:48 work with your the the layer 2 overlay

10:52 and that's where your automation that's

10:53 where the magic can take place so start

10:55 looking at your network in a different

10:57 way and that also gives you that that

10:59 capability for agility to move between

11:02 um uh automation for vlans and you no

11:05 longer need to be locked in for static

11:07 connections uh connections and

11:09 separations but that is the future of

11:12 networking

11:14 but there's a there's there's definitely

11:15 a trap

11:17 new skills are required you've heard

11:21 a lot of talk about apis and it's true

11:23 apis are required understanding python

11:28 understanding

11:29 um rest understanding programming it's

11:32 coming

11:33 as a network engineer all of my career I

11:36 don't know how to program and that will

11:38 make me obsolete

11:40 so ultimately this is the way forward

11:42 you're definitely going to have to you

11:43 know retrain reskill but that means that

11:46 you're freed up to do other things

11:48 and makes you more valuable so

11:51 conclusion

11:52 the network I'm talking about today in

11:55 2022

11:56 is the network that you should I'm going

12:00 to rephrase that not should must

12:04 have

12:05 by 2025. if you're going to survive and

12:08 it's going to be sink or swim so

12:10 ultimately the network Renaissance is

12:12 here this stuff really works it's not

12:13 back in the day when you're trying to

12:15 glue stuff together or it really wasn't

12:17 real networking this is real and that

12:20 means that you have to start procuring

12:21 things now

12:23 you want to begin with the business use

12:24 case I wasn't really talking a lot about

12:27 the you know role of our sleeves let's

12:28 talk about technology because we're not

12:30 there yet let's talk about your business

12:32 requirements let's talk about why you

12:35 need it then we can build the technology

12:37 use case after that that's where you

12:39 define the technology use case and then

12:42 what's most important when you get this

12:44 all together

12:45 a robust proof of concept is absolutely

12:48 mandatory don't take my word for it that

12:52 this stuff works don't take sujay's work

12:54 for it don't take sudir's word for it

12:57 pocket lab this up make them prove that

13:01 this stuff works whether it's it's

13:02 Juniper or Cisco or anyone else you want

13:05 to make sure that they're showing put

13:06 their money where their mouth is but

13:08 ultimately you've got to start on that

13:11 road today this is your North Star and

13:14 by 2025 you're going to be there

13:16 um but it's it's hard right we've all

13:18 been trained in a certain way we've all

13:20 come to certain expectations but we

13:22 think that ultimately The Way Forward is

13:25 the network at the core of business and

13:27 this means I'll end this on the note

13:30 that finally as Network Engineers we can

13:33 hold our heads up high now we're no

13:36 longer or you shouldn't be relegated

13:39 down to a room in the basement we are

13:41 actually at the core of business we

13:43 should have the funding that shows that

13:45 we're at the core of business because at

13:47 this point if you don't you're going to

13:49 run into all kinds of issues

13:54 thank you Mike

13:59 how many of you uh your companies are a

14:03 Gartner client raise your hands

14:05 wow only maybe uh maybe 10 15 of you so

14:10 those 15 people know how much it got it

14:13 costs to actually get access to Gartner

14:16 I don't get it yes Mike doesn't get paid

14:20 on that so unfortunately but this is our

14:23 opportunity for one of the most

14:25 Brilliant Minds in the market the

14:27 thought leader in our industry the

14:30 primary author for the wired and

14:32 wireless LAN 21 billion dollar magic

14:35 quadrant this is our opportunity to ask

14:38 questions for free right so uh we

14:41 intentionally left about 10-15 minutes

14:43 for us to ask questions of Mike so for

14:47 every question

14:48 has to be good maybe every question will

14:51 give away Marvel speaker plus a couple

14:54 of other charge keys so if you have a

14:56 question please come up to the mic and

14:58 and stand up uh for everybody that's uh

15:00 uh that's not tired and sleeping uh

15:02 please walk to the bike uh and we'll

15:04 have a few questions uh but Mike I'll

15:07 start with uh maybe a couple first of

15:09 all your closing slide Vision 2025

15:12 phenomenal you said the network has to

15:15 be about user experience has to have ai

15:17 and um you know we have to upskill and

15:20 start with API and we finish with the

15:22 park sounds great

15:24 where do people start yeah when what do

15:26 you tell people

15:28 God I have all this existing Network

15:30 that I can't wave of wand yeah where do

15:33 I start yeah and this is why it's really

15:35 important to understand what you're

15:38 trying to do

15:39 I get a lot of calls at Gartner and they

15:41 send me of a bill of materials hey I've

15:43 got 100 switches they're all you know 10

15:44 gig

15:45 um I'm you know it runs ospf is this the

15:48 right bill of materials

15:49 I have no idea if the right to build

15:51 materials it's like saying that hey I've

15:54 got a I've got a recipe here I've got a

15:56 bunch of things can I make a cake well I

15:59 don't know what is it you want so the

16:01 first thing is to understand what the

16:04 core drivers are what are you trying to

16:06 do what are you in business to do then

16:08 take a look at your current Network

16:10 where's the gap or your computer or your

16:13 end users complaining about Wireless

16:15 you know um are you do you know that

16:18 your your core Network can't support any

16:20 growth what can't you do today

16:23 understand the gap between business and

16:25 technology and go there and it's always

16:28 if you're going to talk to a consultant

16:29 you're going to talk to Gartner which

16:30 you absolutely should you know Shameless

16:32 plug

16:33 um you definitely want to come to us

16:36 with a business case I can't tell you

16:37 how few customers have a mature business

16:40 case done they're still building this

16:43 out as a technology Endeavor when again

16:46 the remember the role of the network

16:48 is to get the hell out of the way of the

16:50 business so they can do what they need

16:52 to do so let's let's come with a

16:54 business case let's understand where you

16:55 are today and then let's build a walk

16:58 run fly

17:00 um path forward let's start walking

17:01 today it doesn't make a difference that

17:03 you're still running 36.50 I'm not even

17:06 running that at home so you got wow um

17:09 but you you

17:10 it's best to say that listen we're

17:12 beginning to walk and we're walking in

17:14 the right direction then not walk at all

17:16 so it's a hard journey the longest

17:18 journey begins with the first step in

17:20 that first step is the hardest awesome

17:21 and I think the next one oh sorry

17:24 question yes yes sir please stand up

17:27 question to ask is related to that

17:29 migration you know actually the slide

17:31 you showed at the very beginning you

17:32 know up is not good

17:34 a lot of senior leadership on the

17:36 business side consider up to be good

17:38 yeah absolutely

17:44 yep

17:46 yep

17:54 how do you present that in such a case

17:56 you know so that you can you know

17:58 convince the business that you can do

18:01 this business better yeah you know just

18:03 so you don't think okay please introduce

18:06 yourself that's a great question

18:07 introduce yourself though introduce

18:08 yourself oh I'm sorry I I'm Jeff

18:10 actually I'm with the cosmos resource

18:13 and Resident engineer awesome thank you

18:15 so again the question I have is you know

18:18 in the past what I've done is what we

18:19 call share the pain you know I'll make

18:21 it hurt for the business folks and then

18:22 they want me to fix it uh but what's a

18:25 good strategy going forward yeah

18:26 absolutely so so again let's start with

18:30 a non-technical conversation I mentioned

18:32 that the way you have to go forward with

18:34 this

18:34 is that up while it while it used to be

18:38 good enough because that's all we could

18:39 get you were happy if you could just

18:41 ping things we're beyond that at this

18:44 point so as I said look at the great

18:47 resignation if you someone if the users

18:49 come in the office and your network

18:51 sucks they're going to quit

18:54 how much is that going to cost you if

18:56 you're if your customers can't

18:59 speak to the customer service reps or

19:01 your system is down and they go

19:03 somewhere else how much is that going to

19:04 cost you

19:05 the the point here is we need to stop

19:08 being Pennywise and pound foolish we've

19:11 got to start playing the long game it's

19:13 not just about little green uh blinking

19:15 lights and that's our definition of up

19:18 what's the definition of up now is is

19:21 that you're providing a great end-to-end

19:24 experience and you're supporting the

19:26 business the way it's supposed to be

19:27 supported anything less

19:30 it's not it's not the future and matter

19:33 of fact it's not even current so where

19:34 you're going to end up is you're going

19:35 to end up spending more in the long run

19:37 because of a failure of insight on the

19:40 short term

19:41 make sense and Jeff uh you know without

19:45 actually making the Shameless plug to

19:47 Gartner absolutely speaking to Gartner

19:50 there are two ways that we we bring

19:52 customers your leadership to understand

19:54 that there is a better future either you

19:57 speak to Industry analysts or to other

20:00 customers who have done this before and

20:02 and have soon seen the light in the

20:04 transition right and and so uh either

20:07 way absolutely whoa we have actually

20:09 several questions yeah uh there you go

20:11 please how are we doing I'm George

20:12 beckmezia and I have a question do you

20:15 provide the same recommendation to OT

20:17 manufacturing customers as you do to

20:20 Enterprise with regards to Cloud

20:22 management and fabrics because those

20:25 networks are much more

20:27 sensitive right to outages and they

20:31 oftentimes need to work in isolation

20:33 right yeah so that's a great question so

20:36 the the advice we're giving is not just

20:39 for the Enterprise now granted

20:40 Manufacturing vectoring networks have

20:42 different requirements there's different

20:44 bandwidth requirements but there's going

20:46 to be more security requirements right

20:48 because if I can take over your PLC and

20:51 do all kinds of crazy things I can do I

20:52 can pretty much take over your network

20:53 so if you look at the security

20:55 requirements on a manufacturing Network

20:57 they're actually more stringent because

20:59 you've got a lot more headless devices

21:01 so if we even look at adoption for iot

21:03 it's even more so on your side of the

21:06 house than it is on the Enterprise

21:08 because in the corporate space we see

21:10 far less iot devices you got a

21:12 thermostat here but you see more so on

21:15 yours

21:16 building out of fabric I'm really

21:18 understanding you know what those uh

21:19 those those devices are doing that's

21:21 even more so and even and yes to your

21:24 point it's even more sensitive to

21:26 outages but remember

21:27 the point here is moving away from doing

21:30 reconvergence if a if you're

21:32 reconverging your routing protocol or

21:35 just spanning tree or those other things

21:36 being able to go to a fabric will give

21:39 you more flexibility more security and

21:41 it gives you a central point that you

21:43 can manage from a policy standpoint so

21:46 all of the reasons that you should be

21:48 doing this is even more Amplified in

21:50 your in your neck of the woods

21:52 thanks Verna

21:55 Robert Eubanks I thank you for your

21:57 presentation today a couple quick

21:58 questions I'm curious Gartner's stance

22:01 on the global ramifications of the

22:03 supply chain and how that affects the

22:05 future growth into new networks that you

22:08 talked about today yep wow and then I

22:11 asked this to sit here all the time

22:12 what's the status of the supply chain

22:14 you you can't make this up it couldn't

22:16 get any worse for for Network vendors or

22:20 for for any technology companies right

22:22 because if we look at

22:24 um even though covid you know

22:26 technically originated in you know the

22:28 APAC region what we saw was that China

22:31 I had you know only so many cases so

22:33 they were still open while we were

22:35 closed so that was something that when

22:37 we got back up we're saying well look

22:39 China is able to support us and and that

22:42 whole region can support the supply

22:43 chain well they came into where now

22:46 they're closing down and we're opening

22:48 up so all of those resources is

22:50 problematic then you you add to and

22:53 again you can't make this up you look at

22:54 the war in Ukraine and the two leaders

22:56 of rare medals fighting each other that

22:59 too is going to is going to slow it down

23:01 so whether it's pricing whether it's

23:03 supply chain the new normal for us take

23:05 Ukraine out of the equation what I would

23:08 have told you if you had called me prior

23:10 to the invasion in February was The New

23:14 Normal will be be happy with 92 you know

23:18 120 days with the current state of

23:21 supply

23:22 with the war in Ukraine now we're saying

23:25 look you know six months a year

23:28 that's probably the new normal until

23:30 those two stop fighting and then we can

23:33 bring

23:34 um and we can bring the supply chains

23:36 back online so it's going to really

23:38 pretty much be nasty

23:40 for at least another two years three

23:42 years before it gets better so plan

23:44 ahead and to that point I just wanted to

23:46 add

23:46 Gartner advice on supply chain and we

23:49 wrote we just wrote a note what to do to

23:51 the long lead times on wireless on

23:53 networking

23:55 plan ahead plan I had planned ahead

23:57 those of you who do your budgets yearly

24:00 you better start thinking 18 months 24

24:02 months down the line I'd rather have you

24:05 and I'm sure would rather have you buy

24:07 the stuff now stick it on the dock you

24:09 call Sadir and say look I don't want to

24:11 put maintenance on this thing he'll

24:12 probably say fine I'm not going to

24:14 charge you maintenance just buy it put

24:15 it there we'll put it in production and

24:17 we'll worry about that then then to be

24:19 in a situation where you don't have the

24:22 equipment you have a new site opening up

24:24 people are moving in and you're getting

24:26 another call from your VAR telling you

24:28 what it's probably going to be another

24:29 six months so plan ahead uh on the

24:32 supply chain out um there is a secret

24:34 word if you tell us you're ditching a

24:37 rubber or shooting Cisco in the head we

24:39 will ship your APS tomorrow so that's

24:42 the secret handshake so uh um uh where

24:45 is ml uh from University of Washington

24:47 he's in the building he said if you got

24:49 me a thousand there he is a thousand

24:52 WiFi 60 APS by the end of July sorry end

24:56 of June you know we got a deal and he's

24:59 got 500 of them coming this week and a

25:01 few more later we have magic we can work

25:03 work with us please

25:06 Ah that's where yours went we didn't

25:10 tell you that

25:12 so I have kind of a comment

25:14 to what you're talking about the fabric

25:15 my name is Ross I'm from data endure

25:18 um

25:19 and I want you to kind of comment back

25:21 on it so you're talking about the fabric

25:23 and what the Network's doing what the

25:24 business needs are right the way I've

25:27 always approached it is more what's the

25:28 application and moreover what's the

25:31 workflow within the application for the

25:33 certain departments right so how does HR

25:35 use CRM versus accounting sure right

25:37 because those are in two entirely

25:38 different things and that's that's how I

25:40 design fabric is saying okay what's the

25:43 expectation of that application and

25:45 build requirement from there because

25:47 nobody has business requirements they

25:48 think they do by saying I wanted to do

25:50 these six things that's a wish list it's

25:52 not requirements requirements are how

25:55 does the application have to perform for

25:57 your specific case even though it's the

25:59 same servicenow is a great application

26:01 to talk about that right because it

26:03 could do a thousand things yep so that's

26:06 kind of the way I approach it and I'm

26:08 kind of wondering you know when you're

26:10 talking about the fabric and you're

26:11 talking about I think you were going

26:12 here a little bit the business part of

26:15 it what's your comments on pulling those

26:17 workflows out and pulling those

26:19 individual needs of the application

26:22 versus thinking about the fabric and the

26:24 overall business need absolutely great

26:26 question and we are violently in

26:27 agreement because ultimately workflows

26:30 people applications that's all your

26:34 business right so if you looked at the

26:35 business plan that's what you'd be

26:37 talking about because you didn't buy an

26:39 application because well we just bought

26:41 an application you didn't move from

26:42 on-prem Voiceover IP to Cloud voice over

26:45 IP you didn't put a new call center just

26:47 because you you had nothing better to do

26:49 so to that point you know when I'm

26:51 talking about business requirements it's

26:53 a macroscopic point but absolutely that

26:56 business plan should be should be

26:59 totally broken down into each contingent

27:01 parts and that's exactly what you're

27:03 talking about now you're talking about

27:04 workflow now you're talking about

27:06 applications now you're talking about

27:07 user requirements now you're talking

27:09 about application requirements

27:10 absolutely so we're in agreement just

27:12 top down

27:13 awesome last question thank you they put

27:16 me on the spot so it's like so Marriott

27:19 International you are influencer for for

27:23 the other businesses so Gardner as as a

27:26 product I have like a personal question

27:28 how do you know that you are

27:31 thinking outside of the box and what is

27:34 your control to making those

27:35 recommendations yeah

27:37 you know as as an analyst and I thank

27:39 you for that question

27:41 we sit and we look at current States and

27:46 what can be what should be and it's

27:49 interesting because as a network

27:50 engineer I'll tell you how I ended up at

27:52 Gartner

27:53 I was a network engineer and we were

27:54 having this really deep conversation on

27:56 bgp timers

27:58 and I had this out of Body Experience

28:00 bgp timers we just spoke about a throw

28:04 an hour about that that's not what's

28:07 important right so if we look at the

28:09 constant the contingent parts

28:11 I was I was thinking listen this is what

28:14 it should be doing these are the things

28:16 that are needed and these are the holes

28:18 and if to the point we had earlier

28:21 constant thinking about the way we've

28:23 always done things that's always driven

28:26 me crazy when people say hey Mike but

28:29 that's the way we've always done it I

28:30 get like hives and I break out and start

28:32 scratching so so from a Gartner analyst

28:35 perspective we get to think outside and

28:38 even so we're encouraged to think almost

28:40 too unconventionally we have research

28:42 that's called um Gartner Maverick we're

28:45 pretty much

28:46 I can I can really go outside of the box

28:48 so it's about really understanding the

28:51 currency of the market when I feel that

28:53 I've captured

28:54 something that it's just not googleable

28:56 it's something that's over and above

28:58 that then I hopefully have done my job

29:00 and when I speak to you guys and and you

29:03 know I get wow you know we didn't

29:05 consider that we'll add this to our list

29:07 and I know you know we've done right

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