Panel Discussion — Network Security in a Hybrid Work World

00:00 [Music]

00:07 so we now move to our panel discussion

00:11 we will start the panel with a quick

00:13 self introduction so jay let you go

00:16 first then after that agony sure hi

00:18 everyone i'm jay howie as brian just

00:20 pointed out

00:21 um

00:22 i'm a senior director at rbc and i have

00:25 the fortunate pleasure of leading a

00:28 group of very talented subject matter

00:30 experts that are involved in designing

00:32 all things related to network security

00:34 for rbc globally

00:36 um

00:37 i've been at rbc for almost 25 years and

00:41 all in the network security space so

00:42 i've been uh i've kind of seen the

00:45 network security

00:46 space grow from its uh infancy to what

00:49 it is now so um it's been quite a

00:51 journey

00:52 and brian thank you for inviting me i'm

00:54 really looking forward to the

00:56 conversation thank you very much jay for

00:59 your support and i like jay introduced

01:02 he has been uh with the bank for so many

01:04 years and especially in the network's

01:07 network network security field so what

01:10 uh uh actually

01:12 me describe the history and uh jay has a

01:15 first-hand experience to have all those

01:17 things right so that's a great uh angle

01:20 we have actually i meet and i go back uh

01:23 probably about at least 10 years

01:25 i've known him i mean back in the day

01:27 when he

01:28 he used to be toronto based as well so

01:30 uh um he's definitely got part of that

01:33 part of that history with him as well

01:35 it's a small world yes it is

01:38 yeah excellent um

01:41 agony

01:43 can you

01:44 can you give me another try

01:46 yeah hello okay yeah we can hear you

01:48 know good very cool

01:50 okay so hi my name is agni uh good

01:52 evening from

01:54 india and i mean it's morning here but

01:56 good evening to everyone who's on the

01:58 call

01:59 um yeah i am currently engaged as the

02:02 group's ceo for biocon and pyocon is a

02:06 pharmaceutical company and

02:09 apart from this i do a little bit of

02:13 pro bono

02:15 working with

02:16 standards bodies

02:18 my experience spans about

02:20 30 years in cyber security business

02:23 continuity data privacy

02:25 and risk management and i've been

02:27 contributing to standards on iso i'm

02:29 part of three

02:31 forums on iso

02:33 one for security and privacy the second

02:35 for continuity and resilience and the

02:38 third is for risk management

02:40 i am also part of business continent

02:42 institute and i work with them for cyber

02:44 resilience

02:46 i am a speaker at various events

02:48 especially the global forums from

02:51 uh ec council and ismg and uh

02:55 business continuity institute and now

02:56 i'm here i'm happy for you know brian

02:59 calling me on online and

03:02 thank you brian for calling me here i'm

03:04 also part of cloud security alliance um

03:06 i've been contributing to

03:08 the cloud control matrix version 4 and

03:11 the auditing guidelines that came right

03:13 after

03:14 so

03:15 that's in short who i am i'm currently

03:18 working on a standard for cyber

03:20 resilience for the bureau of indian

03:22 standards

03:23 thank you brian

03:25 all right thank you very much again as

03:27 we can see you have a broad

03:29 industry experience a rich also you you

03:32 have it involved with the the the

03:35 standard the definition standard

03:37 establish all those

03:39 uh cloud risk standards so that's great

03:42 we are very honored to have you join the

03:44 panel today in fact i'm hoping that one

03:47 of these days i will be invited to

03:49 contribute to the sassy as a standard

03:52 who knows

03:53 it's coming

03:55 all right cool uh i mean we actually

03:58 introduce you but if you can add like a

04:00 30 seconds uh any perspective from you

04:03 from no not the official introduction

04:05 but to yourself

04:07 sure so like jay pointed out i'm

04:09 actually originally from toronto uh

04:11 spent most of my life there before

04:13 moving out to california

04:15 so i had the opportunity to work with a

04:17 number of organizations in canada uh

04:20 along with along with the bank and uh

04:23 started talking about this shift to the

04:25 cloud over a decade ago with jay and his

04:27 team right so uh it's it's things you

04:30 know trent when we see trends we start

04:33 sort of discussing them and planning for

04:35 the changes and sometimes i'm trying to

04:37 take longer to uh to sort of solidify

04:40 right

04:41 and sassy is definitely one of those

04:42 that's sort of on the scene but it's

04:44 still evolving and still crystallizing

04:46 and uh and you know

04:48 it may morph a little bit by the time

04:50 it's fully baked and we'd love to have

04:52 uh looks like agni help can i contribute

04:54 to that

04:56 excellent thank you very much

04:58 and uh

04:59 at least you escape the the winter time

05:01 here so you get a little bit warmer in

05:04 california

05:05 and all right cool uh let's start our

05:08 panel discussion uh for people online i

05:10 also encourage you to submit your

05:12 questions through chat or q a we

05:15 actually got some questions already

05:17 in the meantime i have prepared some

05:20 questions to ask our panels so let's

05:22 start first with that question

05:25 and just to give some reason why we need

05:29 to look at today's topic network

05:31 security because a network security kind

05:33 of in the industry for a long long time

05:36 like from day one the firewall all those

05:38 things right but recently especially

05:41 last two years kobe 19 dynamic changed

05:45 the whole landscape

05:47 which caused that we call it a hybrid

05:49 work world right hybrid work environment

05:52 so i'd like to ask our panel members

05:56 how does a hybrid work environment

05:58 impact the security landscape today

06:02 i want to hear your perspective from

06:04 there

06:05 um

06:06 maybe who wants to be first

06:09 i'll i'll jump in okay jay yeah um so

06:12 brian as you pointed out like for sure

06:14 the uh

06:15 the pandemic

06:16 was a game changer right um and really

06:19 put a lot a lot of focus on certain

06:22 parts of the network um

06:24 you know remote access being one for

06:26 sure

06:28 uh so a lot of our employee you know a

06:30 lot of our internet egress services a

06:32 lot of our third party um connectivity

06:35 um you know just the amount of data

06:37 we're pushing now

06:38 um is just through through the roof

06:41 right um

06:42 you know what i would say about hybrid

06:46 hybrid uh um the hybrid work environment

06:49 is

06:49 you know without a doubt no it's not one

06:52 size fits all you know i think i think

06:54 hybrid me hybrid for me means

06:56 flexibility

06:57 and in the network uh in the network

06:59 security pieces need to kind of adapt

07:03 and and provide and enable that

07:04 flexibility

07:06 um i think it puts more and more

07:08 pressure on the network on network

07:09 security around protecting employees

07:12 um and assets and data

07:14 especially with us having you know

07:16 considerably more people working

07:18 remotely and all over the place

07:20 um i think it really comes down to

07:21 rethinking a lot of our network security

07:24 infrastructures and the tools we use you

07:26 know i know me talks about sassy you

07:28 know i'm sure we'll get into things like

07:30 zero trust network access

07:32 concepts and a few other things but

07:34 these things are really um

07:35 you know coming to the forefront

07:38 um you know at this critical time and i

07:40 and for me

07:41 um i know i'm probably jumping a little

07:43 bit ahead here but you know if i if i

07:45 look at what it means talking about he's

07:46 talking about you know the power and the

07:49 promise of of cloud computing and how

07:51 that's how that's translating across

07:54 into providing solutions in the network

07:56 security space and i think that's uh

07:58 that's definitely something um you know

08:00 we're we're keeping our eye on and

08:02 seeing seeing that uh that transpire

08:06 very cool

08:07 so the transformation the the actually

08:10 the covalent accelerated digital

08:12 transformation without a doubt in a way

08:15 to push us to accelerate and we need to

08:19 bring a lot of flexibility to our staffs

08:23 and also the cloud computing all those

08:25 latest technology push this great uh

08:28 agony want to add anything on that one

08:31 yeah so um

08:33 this sassy is not new it didn't happen

08:35 because of the pandemic

08:38 right but it it definitely like you said

08:42 it was brought forward it was

08:44 accelerated because

08:46 of the pandemic because of the situation

08:48 that we are in this

08:50 uh right now where a lot of people are

08:51 working from home

08:53 and you have a lot of stress from valid

08:57 users coming from outside the network

08:59 unlike earlier where most of the valid

09:01 users were inside the network

09:03 so

09:04 i think it was developed in 2019 and

09:07 zero trust i think was somewhere in 2010

09:11 so uh all these concepts have been

09:13 around for quite some time it's just

09:15 that

09:17 the real development of the tools the

09:20 the technology

09:22 and the use cases uh most importantly

09:25 that has evolved due to the pandemic so

09:29 uh

09:30 what you know in before we we got onto

09:32 the pandemic i think somewhere in march

09:34 2020 i wrote a small note on what i

09:37 believe will change over time and though

09:40 i didn't call out sassy by its name but

09:43 i did say that the security and network

09:46 are going to merge and

09:48 one of the key challenges

09:50 that we have in today's pandemic is

09:53 really not network and not security it's

09:56 more about people so there is a sizable

09:58 amount of work that's going on that's

10:00 trying to make sure that

10:02 when people get connected to your

10:03 enterprise

10:05 the human aspect is taken care of but

10:07 let me come back to what we are

10:08 discussing today the reason that the

10:10 human aspect becomes a huge thing is

10:13 because you're no longer connected

10:15 physically to the enterprise and i'm by

10:18 connected physically i don't mean by

10:19 wires i mean the human human interaction

10:22 being in an office and and and therefore

10:26 the focus of the whole world is now

10:28 moving from

10:30 a perimeter-based network to

10:32 a more decentralized network where the

10:35 perimeter is moving on to

10:37 the guy who's trying to connect into

10:39 your enterprise so there's a

10:41 transformation that has happened due to

10:42 the pandemic and

10:44 and given the situation that we are in

10:46 and given the fact that

10:48 the network is transforming through

10:50 sassy through other mechanisms

10:52 i think it's a good uh space to be for

10:55 uh

10:56 those who are innovating those who are

10:59 bringing newer things

11:00 and the best part is that the whole

11:01 world is contributing to make things

11:03 better

11:05 yeah so

11:07 the world is different now and the way

11:09 people are working are totally different

11:12 and i like what you mentioned it's not

11:14 just a centralized it's more like a

11:16 distributed now you have a bigger

11:18 network to manage and how do you deal

11:21 with the classic network model so that's

11:24 the definitely the impact

11:26 i mean you want to uh share more on that

11:29 one

11:30 yeah so you know hybrid work and the

11:32 pandemic has certainly changed a lot of

11:34 things for the industry right but the

11:36 one question i ask myself every few days

11:40 and i love to debate is what does the

11:42 enterprise network even mean today right

11:44 all of us are at home you know um

11:47 presumably managed laptops connecting to

11:49 sas applications doing our work right

11:52 like uh we're not touching the firewall

11:55 that exists out in the corporate network

11:56 at all right traffic's going straight on

11:58 over the internet to uh to the sas

12:01 vendor right so what does it even mean

12:03 to have an enterprise network and then

12:06 as a security as a person responsible

12:08 for security in my organization right

12:10 how do i like what sort of controls can

12:12 i put in place to make sure that i can

12:14 still manage our cyber risk and keep my

12:16 employees safe and keep uh keep my data

12:19 safe

12:21 that's that's really what it boils down

12:22 to

12:23 yeah that's a very fundamental

12:26 fundamental question what does the

12:28 enterprise network mean to us right so

12:30 if

12:31 everything change i'm sitting at my

12:33 basement work remotely to access the

12:36 enterprise every one of uh like dynamic

12:39 locations so what does that mean

12:42 um which actually lead our next question

12:45 right so we talk about hybrid

12:48 environment to definitely impact our

12:50 security and the way we are working

12:53 now let's narrow down a little bit to

12:56 network security or enterprise network i

12:59 mean mentioned

13:00 so based on the current situation what

13:03 do you see

13:05 from from that requirement side what are

13:08 some like a key requirements for the uh

13:11 or pressure to the enterprise uh like a

13:14 large organization like a bank like a

13:15 global company or even small media

13:18 customers or small media

13:21 companies what kind of a

13:23 major requirements for a modern

13:26 enterprise network so what do you see

13:29 must we must achieve

13:34 anyone can jump uh maybe a me first so

13:36 we can we can kind of switch now yeah i

13:39 can i can give you a bit of a

13:40 perspective i'm hearing that i'm hearing

13:41 from our customers right and and the

13:43 folks we talk to right so

13:46 there's a few different things so the

13:48 cyber threat landscape is constantly

13:50 changing right every few every so often

13:52 we're seeing new threats pop up on the

13:54 scene

13:55 uh last year we all saw kind of what

13:57 happened with ransomware and all the

13:58 negative effects that that came out of

14:00 that right that's a big that's a big

14:02 shift that we're seeing and these things

14:04 are turning over a lot faster for now

14:07 right there's other problems in the

14:08 industry like you know email fraud and

14:10 business email compromise uh there's

14:13 ddos threats on the network right every

14:15 uh every quarter or so we're seeing a

14:18 new bar set in the site in terms of a

14:20 volumetric ddos attack that somebody's

14:22 experienced or some networks experience

14:24 but these are the changing sort of

14:26 threat landscape requirements that we

14:28 see but the biggest one that we see is

14:30 the need for flexibility right because

14:32 uh folks are not able to kind of

14:35 like have a crystal ball looking three

14:37 years in the future to understand okay

14:39 what percentage of my users are going to

14:41 be in the office versus at home right so

14:44 uh so so just having that like that

14:46 number could be 100

14:47 could be five percent right

14:49 and based on that they want to keep

14:51 their options open and uh and be

14:54 prepared to shift and adapt as

14:55 conditions

14:56 change

14:58 excellent

14:59 so that's the insight from amit

15:02 from his observation with his clients

15:05 and the industry

15:07 what about

15:08 jay and agony so you're both managing a

15:11 large organization the network so what

15:14 do you see from the requirements side

15:17 let me start okay okay yeah go ahead

15:20 so um

15:22 there are multiple areas and i'll let

15:24 jay talk about the topics that i think

15:27 he wanted to

15:28 but

15:29 i'm going to give a very simplistic

15:30 example of what the network is evolving

15:34 and i'm going to relate it to our lives

15:36 imagine you go into a museum so you buy

15:38 a ticket and then you enter a hall and

15:41 now you're at liberty to select

15:43 which one of those halls you want to go

15:46 into there's no one to check you and you

15:47 can go to

15:49 go and see any part of the museum at any

15:51 point of time upon your leisure

15:54 compare that to visiting someone in a

15:56 government facility depending on how

15:59 and who you are visiting

16:01 broadly you would have to go to the gate

16:04 announce yourself show some kind of

16:07 evidence that proves who you are

16:10 and then you get called into to meet the

16:13 person that you're trying to meet and

16:15 then you've got to wait in the lobby

16:17 before that person makes sure that

16:18 you're the person who's going to meet

16:20 and there would be a secretary who would

16:21 probably come and ask you a few

16:23 questions or a security guard who's

16:25 going to pose a few more questions and

16:26 once everything is validated you would

16:28 be ushered in to meet that person that

16:31 you you're that you're out to meet

16:33 today's network an earlier network

16:35 has been like these two things

16:38 earlier the network was all about like

16:40 amit said in his uh in his speech in the

16:43 beginning

16:44 it was all about making

16:46 computing systems available and it was

16:49 more like a museum

16:51 as long as you landed on the network you

16:53 had the liberty to choose which computer

16:55 system you would want to connect to

16:57 and what would you do next

16:59 today's network requirements are more

17:01 like visiting that government officer

17:03 right

17:04 you need to be validated because you

17:07 don't know who the valid user is and who

17:09 the perpetrator is

17:11 jay

17:13 yeah i mean

17:15 i i'll kind of build on what you're

17:17 saying and what a meat's saying right i

17:18 think i think it means right flexibility

17:22 scalability is a huge piece like we've

17:25 got you know and uh and resiliency are

17:27 are really key concepts

17:29 in the in the modern enterprise network

17:31 i'm not saying they weren't in the past

17:32 but i'm just i think that i think the

17:34 games kind of you know really uh you

17:36 know really

17:38 upped itself

17:39 um i think you're seeing a lot more um

17:42 focus on on um you know what whether you

17:45 want to call it micro segmentation or

17:47 workload segmentation concepts in the

17:49 network as well that that kind of tie

17:51 together

17:52 access and identity concepts together as

17:55 well um you know and and

17:58 you know putting more controls around

18:00 uh flows within the network um

18:04 now to enable a lot of this stuff you

18:06 know you're i think you're seeing a lot

18:07 of focus on things like software-defined

18:08 networks um program programmable

18:11 networks

18:12 um you know the use of apis for internet

18:15 connect inter interconnectivity

18:17 um you know and again i think that i

18:20 think you're also seeing now the

18:21 extension of your network

18:24 you know either you know not only to the

18:26 cloud

18:27 um but also you know in in many cases to

18:29 people's

18:31 you know people's homes

18:33 and and that that's the you know it's

18:34 just you know that whole i think amit

18:37 had had a had a diagram in his

18:39 presentation around the whole uh you

18:41 know castle moat paradigm that's that's

18:44 long gone right it's

18:46 it's uh there's a ton of holes and and

18:48 access points coming out of that castle

18:50 that we need to consider and factor into

18:52 things and that's why some of these uh

18:54 some of these concepts and so what what

18:56 what agni was talking about around this

18:59 permissioning as you move throughout the

19:01 network is becoming a bigger and bigger

19:03 concept

19:06 wonderful

19:07 all right so those are some uh key

19:09 requirements you can see so like a

19:11 flexibility

19:13 uh like a check

19:15 it's not like a older

19:17 perimeter-based security you have to

19:19 implement all those zero trusts we will

19:22 touch on that a little bit later and

19:24 access control and also really need to

19:27 meet the current

19:29 the work environment people work from

19:31 everywhere and also you want to make the

19:34 system agile flexible

19:37 scalable it's not just okay you put it

19:39 there and forget about it right so those

19:42 are some key requirements that we can

19:44 observe

19:45 um all right so since we have this

19:48 requirements

19:49 the so the logic

19:51 the question next is

19:53 how do we do it

19:54 right so especially not everyone from

19:57 scratch right so if i uh like i say i'm

20:00 running a startup that's okay i just buy

20:02 the latest one the cloud-based

20:04 everything cloud and native but for a

20:07 large organization doesn't matter as a

20:08 bank the global company or the you

20:10 already have the years of infrastructure

20:14 and the network model the people get

20:16 used to that

20:17 so what do you see some what's your

20:20 recommendation to transform a

20:22 traditional i'm sure a lot of companies

20:25 still own

20:26 traditional or kind of a halfway there

20:28 right so to transform a traditional

20:31 network model to the modern network

20:34 architecture

20:35 so what's your recommendation there

20:39 maybe i can you you start first

20:42 so um

20:44 in in my view there are three kinds of

20:47 organizations today

20:49 those who will not move to cloud right

20:52 now

20:53 probably because of

20:54 the way they are connected and the

20:56 reliance on connectivity being lower

20:59 and they will come to cloud probably

21:01 later not not right now

21:03 then there are those who are born on the

21:05 cloud like you said right they they've

21:08 never seen an infrastructure problem

21:10 because for them

21:11 infrastructure is a given

21:13 it is not supposed to fail

21:15 so that's the second kind of

21:18 organization and then the largest part

21:20 of the world are all those who are

21:22 migrating into the cloud like you said

21:24 traditional

21:25 migrating into the cloud

21:27 now

21:29 when you are traditional and migrating

21:31 into the cloud this migration could be

21:33 called a transformation and and so and

21:36 so forth

21:37 it has to be driven by

21:39 the organization's need to go digital

21:43 and there are a lot of organizations who

21:45 are going digital and there is a

21:47 sizeable amount of organization also if

21:50 i were to split those who are

21:52 transforming into two parts those who

21:54 are already

21:55 somewhere closer to the target of

21:56 digitalization of their enterprise and

21:59 those who are beginning

22:01 because there's a huge amount of digital

22:03 information that is needed before

22:07 a network like i mean the cloud

22:09 facilities could really be used

22:11 right because unless you have the data

22:13 that you want to use for

22:15 business purposes

22:17 there is no need for them to go digital

22:20 for them to use cloud

22:21 so

22:22 the whole thing will then break you know

22:25 depend upon

22:26 the movement and the need and and and

22:29 and the impetus of

22:31 the market that every organization will

22:34 work with

22:35 uh to to bring them onto the cloud

22:37 because they would want to be more

22:39 available they would want the data to be

22:42 more

22:43 usable and i'm going to bring a little

22:45 bit of

22:46 a few of those ables from the standards

22:48 perspective right

22:50 um

22:51 you need to be able to

22:53 have your

22:54 network

22:57 structured in such a manner that

23:00 you are that your your business

23:02 functions are repeatable

23:04 and

23:05 comparable and therefore predictable

23:10 all right so that's a agony so point of

23:13 views we really need to look at

23:15 i i love what you described there's a

23:17 everybody is different right so you

23:19 cannot just using one solution to fit

23:22 all the organizations you really need to

23:24 tailor and that's why i liked i liked

23:26 what amit showed at the end a roadmap

23:30 it may be different for all these

23:32 different organizations but there has to

23:34 be a map for even those who are on the

23:37 cloud they need to get used to the fact

23:39 that tomorrow

23:41 infrastructure can fail and you need to

23:43 be prepared for that but that's a

23:44 different story i'm not going there but

23:47 i was just trying to contribute to your

23:49 conclusion that yes no

23:51 no one is saying you need a different

23:53 solution for everybody

23:55 right so you need to tailor the the

23:58 strategy or approach for your

23:59 organization all right uh

24:02 maybe uh amy what what you want to add

24:05 on that yeah yeah i can chime in like

24:07 agni said right the road match map

24:09 approach is really key uh i think

24:11 there's some of we talked about

24:13 segmentation we talked about micro

24:15 segmentation and putting sort of these

24:17 zero trust controls in place couple

24:19 things you can do as as a sort of a

24:23 strategy right one is kind of weaving

24:25 identity more closely into that equation

24:28 uh just having identity aware controls

24:30 and policies right and this could be

24:33 kind of like working with your existing

24:34 identity platform or or using a new

24:37 platform but

24:38 i think that needs to be a big part of

24:40 the security controls and and uh and

24:43 zero trust the second is

24:45 awareness of the endpoint

24:47 right like what device is this how clean

24:50 is this device is this a managed device

24:52 or not uh that's a very useful context

24:55 to kind of help start and and some of

24:57 these things you can start rolling out

24:58 using your existing uh platforms

25:01 existing controls right there's

25:02 integrations available and or you could

25:05 move to a new security control platform

25:07 but i think bringing these two elements

25:09 into the equation this really helps

25:12 move you further along on the sassy

25:14 journey

25:15 excellent so that's a great add-on

25:18 and jay what's your view on this one

25:21 yeah this is a tough one um especially

25:23 in the enterprise space um you know

25:27 i i think if you have the opportunity

25:30 a green field opportunity

25:32 um you know it's a it's a much easier

25:34 transition because you can build a lot

25:36 of this right in from the ground up

25:38 um but like i said in the enterprise

25:40 space you know you're always going to

25:41 have that hybrid of kind of some green

25:44 field maybe with public cloud or private

25:46 cloud and then you're going to have have

25:47 your traditional um you know data

25:49 centers and your in your network

25:51 um that you need to figure out uh a big

25:54 part of this for me would be

25:56 um you know really being able to map out

25:59 business application flow and

26:01 understanding what that is you need to

26:02 have some level of visibility you need

26:04 to know

26:05 um

26:06 what's good traffic versus i'll call it

26:09 non-good

26:11 and be able to you know be able to look

26:12 at that kind of stuff in order to help

26:14 you you know define

26:16 policy i think you'd need to have an

26:18 understanding of

26:19 um you know what

26:21 what you're what you're trying to

26:22 protect um

26:24 you know whether it be your crown jewels

26:25 or or other parts of your organization

26:28 and start there i think if you were to

26:30 if you were to look at it

26:32 if you're trying to attempt this you

26:34 know kind of at a large scale i i don't

26:36 think you're going to be successful i

26:38 think you've got to start small and uh

26:40 and build into it um that'd be my two

26:42 cents i i guess the other piece i would

26:44 add i mean there's a bunch of things

26:46 happening

26:47 you know in the network space

26:49 that are trying to help

26:51 you know this journey you know you're

26:53 seeing a lot of stuff you know a lot of

26:55 companies are are well on their journey

26:57 if not faster you know completed their

27:00 journey on moving away from i guess i'd

27:02 call it like layer three networks

27:04 into more

27:06 leaf spine networks

27:08 that kind of help support some of this

27:09 stuff there's a lot more um you know me

27:12 talked about uh

27:13 software-defined networking there's a

27:15 lot of preval you know a lot of that

27:16 stuff happening in the enterprise space

27:18 um adoption of virtualization things

27:21 like that that can really help you

27:24 you know kind of you know do things at

27:26 the network level but you know whether

27:28 it be at the overlay level or the

27:29 underlay level but you know you can help

27:31 define and break zones out a little bit

27:36 all right

27:36 i really like what you said about the

27:37 crown jewel model earlier right which i

27:39 mean if you're in a large organization

27:41 you can't do it all right it's just too

27:43 complex and too hard it really helps to

27:45 kind of have that understanding of what

27:47 are the important things you need to

27:48 protect

27:49 start there right build a plan around

27:51 those and then and kind of phase it out

27:54 yeah excellent so at the end of the day

27:57 you really need to know what you have

27:59 first

28:00 before you do any change right so

28:01 otherwise you don't know how do you

28:04 measure the success i know how do you

28:06 know one you you you complete some

28:09 transformation percentage-wise so you

28:11 need to know what do you have and this

28:13 also dynamically change you need to

28:15 always update that one

28:18 all right cool

28:19 i do see quite many questions online

28:22 already on the chat and on on the q a

28:26 some of them are quite specific or tied

28:30 to some solutions so i would encourage

28:33 our panelists

28:35 maybe later to to respond to that

28:37 especially if it's a technical question

28:39 so you may want to comment on that but

28:42 here i just pick up some general ones

28:44 so for example i think davey david

28:48 mentioned that zero trust which actually

28:51 related to our next question so xero

28:54 trust become kind of a very popular

28:56 concept in the industry so he wonders

28:59 how that works with our network security

29:02 and how that

29:03 zero trust how do you implement zero

29:05 trust in network security architecture

29:09 maybe uh i mean first i mean

29:13 take a stab at it right zero trust as a

29:15 concept has been been around for you

29:17 know some time right that uh started

29:20 using this term almost a decade ago but

29:22 the real gist of it is is uh that you

29:25 know in far and network security and

29:26 firewalls right we have this notion of

29:28 like implicit deny right

29:30 at the end right which is you know not

29:33 you block everything unless you

29:34 explicitly allow it right and that's

29:36 really the foundation of zero trust it's

29:38 default in eye mode right and uh but in

29:41 practice what we ended up doing is

29:44 we didn't know what all the traffic

29:45 flows were and very often like the

29:47 default deny model didn't work and then

29:50 uh

29:51 and there was this allow any any that's

29:52 not going to do firewall policies

29:55 and it just sort of stayed there right

29:57 and uh

29:58 i think the the the key with zero trust

30:01 is uh some things like network

30:03 segmentation right segmenting and that

30:05 works more and more finely so that it's

30:07 like agni was mentioning right the

30:09 analogy between a museum versus an

30:11 office right

30:12 the other other analysis similar very

30:14 similar analogy i like to use as a hotel

30:16 right in the hotel you have your key

30:18 card and you can walk into the lobby but

30:20 you can't go anywhere else unless your

30:22 key card is authorized right you can't

30:24 just walk into anybody's room you can't

30:25 go to the gym unless you have the your

30:28 your guests there you can't go to the uh

30:30 the the premium lounge in the top floor

30:32 unless you're a premium member right

30:35 and that's the type of model we need to

30:37 move towards

30:38 and that's really the gist of zero trust

30:41 and and like i mentioned like weaving in

30:43 elements like identity and endpoint

30:45 awareness

30:46 are really key to to that picture right

30:48 so making sure that

30:50 the firewall the network security device

30:52 knows who you are and what device your

30:54 com what type of device you're coming

30:56 from is a device safe at this point in

30:58 time right

30:59 those are additional context pieces that

31:01 that are needed to

31:03 to make that access decision

31:05 all right very cool

31:07 i think

31:10 that the network is

31:12 in between

31:14 the real guru here is the application

31:16 so when you're talking zero trust it's

31:19 really about

31:21 whether you are you all those components

31:23 that you can control before someone

31:25 reaches the application

31:27 are they

31:29 ready to trust that connection like amit

31:32 said and i think that hotel example is

31:35 very very relevant because

31:37 if you have a key card

31:39 does the elevator trust you

31:41 and if it does

31:42 i mean can i take your key card and go

31:44 up i could right that's one element

31:47 that's not controlled so if you had a an

31:49 elevator also complemented by the video

31:52 camera that says

31:54 this person with this card is not

31:56 is allowed while this person with the

31:58 same card is not allowed so that

32:00 probably could be zero trust

32:02 i just thought i would add on to what

32:03 amity was saying

32:07 all right so that's actually add on to

32:09 the the hotel story and uh so jay and do

32:13 you want to add anything on that one

32:15 sure i i i won't add on to the hotel

32:17 story i don't i'm not as creative as

32:19 those as the other two guys but um

32:22 i've just got a couple comments so one

32:24 is just make sure that everyone

32:25 understands zero trust is is it's a

32:27 security model um i think sometimes

32:29 people think it's a a product or

32:32 solution but it's really a it's a model

32:34 on how to apply security and yeah

32:36 everyone's right it's really around

32:38 um you know the concept of least

32:40 privileged access it ties to what

32:42 together contextual

32:44 um you know information whether it be so

32:47 it's usually application and user right

32:49 um as far as how to adopt it

32:52 um again i think um i think

32:55 risk appetite and security policies play

32:57 a big role in in helping you

32:59 at least give giving you some framework

33:01 to on how you're going to approach up

33:03 creating a policy

33:05 i i think it's really important to start

33:07 small

33:08 because again it's this is going to be

33:09 it's it's going to be a journey

33:11 um it's especially the enterprise space

33:13 is not something you're going to turn on

33:14 overnight

33:15 um

33:16 i would reiterate what i said before i

33:18 think it's incredibly important to

33:20 understand

33:21 your users and and and the in their

33:24 application traffic flows

33:26 um and really mapping those flows out

33:28 and understanding that in some cases

33:30 there's some tools that help with that

33:32 but sometimes it also requires some uh

33:35 some you know data mining and and things

33:38 like that uh to really understand where

33:39 i go that is um it's really important to

33:42 understand intent

33:43 uh in this situation right like if

33:45 you're just gonna map out flows you

33:46 don't know if the flows are are good

33:48 flows or bad flows right so if you're

33:50 gonna create a policy based on what you

33:52 see

33:52 it may not be

33:54 the ideal policy right um i think you

33:57 have to factor in things like

33:58 multi-factor authentication

34:00 into it usage tracking brian you brought

34:03 that up i mean this is going to be

34:04 something that requires continuous

34:06 monitoring and learning i think you're

34:08 always flipping between what i would

34:10 call learn mode and enforcement mode

34:12 because you're you know a lot of times

34:14 unless you've got a very very static

34:16 environment things are going to change

34:17 and you're going to need to adapt to it

34:20 and hopefully you can build in some

34:21 level of automation or orchestration to

34:24 assist with that so those would be my uh

34:26 my big things

34:28 excellent all right so like a xero trust

34:32 working with network security there are

34:34 actually quite many things happening in

34:36 the industry and so maybe we can recap a

34:40 little bit and from your point of view

34:42 what are some like current industry

34:45 trends or emerging technology or

34:48 emerging trends for the network security

34:51 we mentioned several things already but

34:53 here i just want to take opportunity

34:55 kind of like a recap

34:57 or may not be just a technology maybe a

35:00 compliance or maybe a standard or maybe

35:02 a

35:03 model or architecture so some of the

35:06 quest some of the our audience also

35:08 asked this question so

35:10 i'd like to hear your insights the

35:12 current industry trends about network

35:15 security

35:17 um

35:18 anyway i want to start i'll do it i'll

35:20 jump in on this one

35:21 um definitely what we're seeing um

35:25 a huge increase in in uh threatened

35:27 attacks

35:29 like it's just it's it's crazy

35:31 um we're seeing huge obviously the large

35:34 volumes of uh of remote access workers

35:37 you know in our case you know we we went

35:40 from

35:41 having

35:43 you know probably

35:44 probably our our global solution for

35:46 remote access pre-pandemic you know

35:48 probably supported somewhere around

35:51 maybe 25 or 30 percent of our of our

35:54 overall work workforce

35:56 and you know within a matter of weeks we

35:58 were now supporting like 95

36:01 um uh i i talked about this earlier uh

36:04 the amount of network traffic we're

36:06 pushing today is is

36:09 lar is is more than we've ever seen um

36:12 you know agni talked about it was a

36:13 really cool thing he brought up around

36:15 people and collaboration and obviously

36:18 that those that you know with us now not

36:20 being face to face or

36:22 um you know working in the same

36:24 environment where

36:25 all our collaborations happening over

36:27 the network

36:28 you know whereas probably a portion of

36:29 it was only happening over the network

36:31 so we're seeing that video content

36:33 um you know the business is moving

36:36 you know uh

36:37 moving more and more out to you know to

36:40 leveraging public cloud leveraging sas

36:43 um applications so again that's all

36:44 putting strains on on on the network and

36:47 the network security infrastructure

36:49 um the increase i already talked about

36:51 the increase of cloud adoption and one

36:53 thing i'm we're seeing a lot of um i

36:55 mean this has been building for years

36:56 but

36:57 more and more use of encryption i mean

36:59 probably when i look at our

37:02 um our

37:03 egress traffic flows i'm gonna guess

37:06 we're probably somewhere around 97

37:09 percent of our flows are now encrypted

37:12 so those are the are the big trends that

37:14 we're seeing

37:15 wonderful that's a great firsthand

37:17 experience

37:19 and anyone else want to add on that

37:25 yeah uh so

37:27 i i i was actually looking up my

37:29 previous notes that

37:31 i had from uh from a meeting that we're

37:34 talking about what's emerging and what

37:36 is going to be probably big thing in the

37:38 future and there's one thing that struck

37:40 me very very

37:41 um

37:43 very very unique it's called as moving

37:45 target defense and that's probably

37:47 something that's going to come up in a

37:50 large way in the future currently a few

37:53 vendors are doing something about it but

37:55 i think moving target defense is going

37:58 to become a big thing in network

38:00 security in the future

38:01 this was based upon a paper that was

38:03 written by a department of homeland

38:05 security

38:06 some time ago on how you can keep

38:09 shifting your your your targets uh

38:12 constantly uh on the network and if

38:14 you're able to do that whether you do

38:16 that via decoys whether you do that via

38:20 uh you know a particular network

38:22 architecture or a design or or a switch

38:26 or a router or any other box that that

38:28 comes in in front of your network and

38:30 constantly keeps moving

38:32 the the targets that's going to become

38:34 something very interesting in incoming

38:37 times

38:38 and i believe

38:39 there's a lot of research that is going

38:41 on in that area

38:43 so so the way that works is very simple

38:45 so imagine you're trying to shoot a

38:47 target and the target shifts by

38:50 two inches

38:52 you are definitely going to miss that

38:53 target and it shifted it shifts two

38:56 inches every time you shoot so that's

38:58 the concept of moving target defense but

39:01 a concept

39:02 coming down to reality in terms of how

39:05 it manifests

39:06 itself on the network how how cloud

39:09 service providers are going to bring

39:10 that like you know someone like

39:12 cloudflare is probably going to bring

39:14 that to

39:15 our tables is something that is yet to

39:17 be seen

39:20 all right moving target so that that's

39:22 the uh

39:23 one thing i actually first time here

39:25 this wonderful answer that's really

39:27 interesting

39:28 uh amit you want to

39:30 share anything

39:31 yeah that's that's a very yeah i agree

39:33 that's a very interesting sort of way of

39:35 looking at the problem right it's like a

39:37 little bit of the whack-a-mole game

39:38 right it's

39:40 anytime

39:41 you feel like you've saw you fixed one

39:43 this year the new one pops up but

39:47 if i really sort of step back uh the big

39:50 big macro shift that we're seeing right

39:52 now is mj alluded to this a little bit

39:55 right is this whole thing that i call

39:57 the consumerization of enterprise id

39:59 there's a whole host there's a whole

40:01 ecosystem of sas applications out there

40:04 the new one popping up every week right

40:06 they're geared at solving or digitizing

40:09 some business process something that you

40:11 used to do that was it was and

40:15 smart software engineers trying to

40:16 figure out okay how do i do this better

40:18 and make it more efficient for you and

40:20 save you time and money and i'm going to

40:22 deliver it to you as a sas application

40:24 right either through the web or as a

40:26 mobile app and i'm going to deliver it

40:27 over the internet

40:29 and that's the way i want users to

40:31 consume it

40:32 and our sort of

40:34 challenges on the vendor side is how do

40:36 we ensure that

40:38 we connect the user and that application

40:41 it could be sitting in like aws or gcp

40:44 whatever it is right how do we connect

40:46 it

40:46 over the most efficient path but at the

40:49 same time give enterprises the security

40:52 controls they need to uh to ensure that

40:54 the users and data is safe right so uh

40:57 that's that's really kind of what we're

40:59 working on on the vendor side and trying

41:02 to sort of minimize the number of

41:04 inspections minimize the number of round

41:06 trips minimize any any sort of traffic

41:08 tromboning that could be happening right

41:10 that's kind of what we're focused on in

41:12 delivering a sassy platform

41:15 very cool

41:16 so that's actually also reflects what we

41:18 mentioned today it's a

41:20 different world right now the

41:22 requirements hybrid decentralized and

41:25 people wants a lot of choice flexibility

41:29 in the meantime you have to deliver in

41:31 the agile way it's just like a pandemic

41:34 you have to overnight like almost like

41:36 overnight like a json

41:39 from 25 all of a sudden become a 95 or

41:42 even more so that's actually reflected

41:45 the speed and the scale of

41:48 of your network security to meet the

41:50 current

41:51 industry requirements

41:53 okay um all right so i want to switch

41:56 gear a little bit

41:58 uh i'm sure there are quite many people

42:00 online

42:01 today

42:02 they are interesting cyber security or

42:05 network security they also want to tap

42:07 into some latest technology

42:10 or career opportunities

42:12 since uh network security also changed a

42:14 lot and

42:16 we we talk about quite many technologies

42:19 people ask okay uh if i'm interested in

42:22 this field what kind of things i should

42:24 learn what kind of standard i need to

42:26 kind of understand what kind of

42:28 compliance or

42:30 what kind of things i need to kind of

42:32 start to pay attention to

42:34 so my next question for you is

42:36 from your point of view uh when you

42:38 build a successful from hiring company

42:41 point of view when you build a

42:42 successful security team for a hybrid

42:45 work working work environment what kind

42:48 of a key

42:50 skills or capabilities

42:52 you are looking for

42:54 so which give us some guidance to our

42:56 audience if they're interesting career

42:58 opportunities

43:01 all right jay you want to start sure

43:03 i'll jump in um

43:05 my some of my answers might surprise you

43:07 um it's not i'm not going to focus so

43:09 much on the technical side i actually

43:11 think

43:12 you know the whole this whole

43:14 presentation's just been taught we've

43:15 talked about flexibility and and the you

43:18 know the speeds and scale and uh that

43:20 that we need you know basically we have

43:22 to move at the speed of the business

43:24 right

43:25 some of the key key skills i think

43:26 people need to have is adaptability um i

43:30 think the right aptitude uh

43:32 i think people have to have this

43:34 continually continuous learning mindset

43:37 um because things are changing so

43:38 quickly um you need to be you need to be

43:41 prepared for that

43:42 uh i think

43:44 collaboration i mean who knows you know

43:46 where i don't think the world's ever

43:48 going back to the way it was

43:49 pre-pandemic you know i think i think

43:51 we're you know a lot of a lot of things

43:53 are going to be very hybrid so having

43:54 really strong collaboration skills um

43:57 being able to have strong written and

43:58 verbal communication communication

44:00 skills is incredibly important

44:02 i also think having um you know for a

44:04 lot of people in the technical space for

44:06 the longest time you know it was all

44:09 about the product or the solution that

44:11 they supported and i'm not i'm not

44:13 trying to um

44:14 [Music]

44:15 uh

44:16 say that's

44:18 not important what i'm trying to say

44:19 though is understanding what the

44:21 business

44:22 wants understanding how

44:24 how

44:25 how you or as an employee or or how

44:28 network security

44:29 security solutions can create value is

44:33 very very important so i put down like

44:35 business um focus or or business acumen

44:38 trying to understand kind of where the

44:40 business is headed and how you can play

44:42 a part in that um is really really

44:45 important so those would be mine

44:48 actually you actually talk about human

44:50 network right so you talk about

44:52 collaboration adaptability and also to

44:55 learn speak other people's language to

44:58 to for the purpose of a better

45:00 communication so that's great inside

45:04 uh acne you want to share any insights

45:07 from your end i'm

45:09 i'm

45:10 going to try and connect what amit said

45:12 last to what jay said now

45:15 so by the way i fully agree with jay

45:17 the technology part is the easier part

45:20 it's the other parts of the difficult

45:22 but let me go over to what jay said

45:24 there are five uh

45:26 things that are going to come to all

45:29 enterprises and they're going to seek

45:30 connectivity through the cloud or

45:33 through the standard mechanisms one are

45:36 your internal employees who are sitting

45:38 in

45:39 on a local area network in your offices

45:42 uh

45:43 hybrid is not going away right so there

45:44 are going to be some people in office

45:47 two those people who are trusted

45:49 employees and who are outside for trying

45:52 to come in

45:53 uh three are going to be suppliers and

45:55 partners and they would seek

45:58 newer more flexible options to come in

46:00 especially those who are going to fix

46:02 your problem right so you your machine

46:05 went down you need someone across the

46:07 world who's got the right skill sets and

46:09 the right tool sets to come and fix that

46:12 problem you're going to allow them to

46:13 come in

46:14 uh four is your data center itself right

46:17 so the data center is probably moving to

46:20 the cloud but it still is an element

46:23 that you need to connect

46:24 and and lastly our instruments ot iot

46:30 industrial control systems cada plc's

46:34 all these are soon going to require

46:37 connectivity to the network not only to

46:40 the network but also to the cloud

46:42 directly and indirectly the reason i

46:44 said all these things is to enforce upon

46:47 the point about what we need from the

46:49 people so while you may have some people

46:52 who are focusing on the technology

46:54 someone would understand iot better than

46:56 someone else but

46:59 in the end the people that we need in

47:01 the cyber security part of the world are

47:04 those who understand the business

47:07 or who have the willingness to

47:09 understand the business

47:11 and those who have the patience to go

47:14 through and be adaptable based upon

47:17 whatever new things that throw are

47:19 thrown upon them and lastly those who

47:22 have the hunger

47:24 to learn new things as they happen and

47:26 to use that knowledge to fulfill all

47:29 these five kind of

47:31 connectivity requirements of the future

47:35 very cool i really appreciate your input

47:38 and

47:39 people right so the

47:41 people to understand the business that's

47:44 actually in a way is to understand the

47:46 needs why we need to do it right so

47:50 back to the targets although there's

47:52 moving targets but we want to focus on

47:55 the major tactic

47:56 to to satisfy the business needs rather

47:59 than you just randomly add another piece

48:02 of technology to feels very cool or

48:06 showcased so that's also very important

48:09 all right i mean one of the questions

48:11 that i always have sorry one of the

48:13 questions that i am always having to ask

48:17 my teams is guess

48:19 it's why

48:21 someone comes and tells me they they

48:23 want firewall as a service why

48:26 and i i need this this big thing on the

48:28 firewall management system why and the

48:31 moment you ask those questions you go

48:33 back to what the business wants to do

48:35 because cyber security is no longer

48:39 something that you use to protect your

48:41 business cyber security is going to be

48:44 the cornerstone of your next business

48:48 transition transformation totally it's

48:50 all about enablement i couldn't agree

48:52 more

48:53 absolutely that's the biggest thing i

48:55 talked about started to jump in on this

48:56 but i talked about my history like way

48:58 back in the day

49:00 it was it was a cyber security well it

49:02 wasn't even cyber security at the time

49:04 but it was about protecting it was about

49:06 defending or or you know detect you know

49:09 detection and maybe a little bit of

49:10 prevention

49:11 cyber security now is all about business

49:14 on business enablement that's the piece

49:17 it's a jump it's a it's a it is a jump

49:19 from some people

49:20 but that's what it's about it's about

49:22 identifying how cyber security and how

49:25 the network security solutions or

49:26 whatever security solutions we're

49:28 talking about

49:29 are creating value for the business

49:30 otherwise it doesn't matter

49:34 i i couldn't agree more with with uh

49:36 both of you right it's absolutely about

49:39 enabling the business enabling

49:40 transformation right yeah but going back

49:43 to what jake said a little bit earlier

49:45 right this whole notion of uh

49:48 uh skills being sort of more or bounded

49:50 and finite and technology driven right

49:53 like 20 years ago and i you know 20 25

49:56 years ago when i started dabbling in

49:57 networks and security it was it was

49:59 about learning the platform or learning

50:01 a particular brand of appliance from a

50:04 vendor right and and

50:06 that brand of appliance and that model

50:08 model would probably stick around for

50:10 five six seven years and today's in a

50:12 cloud scenic world we're seeing new

50:14 capabilities and new features being

50:16 released every week right so i think

50:18 it's more important to have a skill

50:21 think of skills in terms of concepts

50:23 rather than individual technologies or

50:26 individual vendors right so so those

50:28 concepts are and then you made a point

50:30 about adaptability aj which is i think

50:32 really key right if you have that if you

50:34 have that skill then you can take that

50:36 concept and apply it to different

50:38 scenarios and different domains and

50:41 and sort of

50:43 find your way through it right

50:45 one foot

50:47 and as you can see three of our panel

50:49 members they have

50:51 years of experience and they observe all

50:54 those transition or probably many

50:58 generations of uh

51:00 network things right so this is not the

51:02 first time this actually definitely not

51:05 the last time so this is just a part of

51:07 it

51:08 although this is quite big but

51:10 uh from their years of experience what

51:12 they

51:13 share with you really is all those

51:16 focus on people focus on uh business

51:19 also focus on the big picture concept

51:22 and how to putting the things together

51:24 so really you need to establish that big

51:26 picture rather than just focus on one

51:28 two or the other all right cool

51:32 and this pretty much come to our end of

51:34 our final discussion we we have a

51:36 calculator almost like uh 50 minutes

51:39 um

51:41 before we go

51:42 actually i want to ask our panel members

51:45 before we

51:46 finish this panel

51:48 if you can make one recommendation to

51:51 our audience uh regarding network

51:54 security or regarding the best practice

51:56 for hybrid uh like a working environment

52:00 what would you like to say to them

52:02 so you can only share one

52:04 due to the time uh what would you what's

52:07 your top uh recommendation

52:10 let's start with a meet

52:13 i would say like don't be too attached

52:15 to the how

52:17 right you may be you may be used to a

52:19 certain way of doing things but think

52:20 about really what is a business need

52:23 what do you what are you what is the end

52:24 goal what are you trying to achieve

52:26 and think more broadly in terms of like

52:29 what are the different ways i can

52:30 achieve this objective right and and the

52:32 way that you're most comfortable with

52:34 may not be the best way right so like

52:36 that's that would be one recommendation

52:38 i'll leave the audience with

52:40 excellent starting with the business

52:42 needs

52:43 all right for anywhere else

52:45 go next um uh it may be along a similar

52:48 line but i i think it's it's all about

52:50 being outcome focused

52:52 focus on the outcome

52:55 right that that should be your your

52:56 where your all your focus is and then

52:59 you know as me mentions there there's

53:00 there could be many different ways to

53:02 achieve that outcome

53:03 and you know but in in it's working

53:06 through those right through whether it

53:07 be through

53:08 iterative processes or or whatnot but

53:11 it's all about being outcome focused

53:14 no no what know what you're know what

53:15 your outcomes are that you're going

53:17 after and what are going to drive the

53:19 business forwards

53:21 in other words it's objectives your

53:23 your goals right so

53:25 don't lose the big picture

53:28 excellent agony you want to add

53:30 yeah i think um we've talked about this

53:33 many times and there's one area that we

53:36 did not and that's an area of focus that

53:39 i would advise everybody to no matter

53:42 what you do how diverse your network is

53:45 whatever that you're planning

53:46 don't forget the governance and

53:48 oversight you need to have complete

53:51 visibility of everything in your

53:54 enterprise in the network

53:57 gives you that visibility if you have

53:59 the mechanism to stand guard on every

54:02 traffic that is going through your

54:03 network do it because that's going to

54:06 give you value to build cyber security

54:09 in addition to enabling the network

54:12 so the visibility is very very important

54:15 so it's not just for practitioners to

54:18 defend but also for auditor like for

54:22 compliance for governance

54:24 like three lines of defense even for

54:27 operations you need visibility because

54:29 if you don't know

54:31 what's going on

54:32 you wouldn't have get those early

54:34 indicators which you will use to respond

54:37 to a future attack

54:40 very true

54:41 and the visibility actually is the key

54:43 components of all the what we talk about

54:47 all right so uh thank you very much uh

54:49 everyone a hour panel members again a

54:53 meet from cloudflare

54:56 jay from rbc and agony from biocon so i

55:00 like to ask everybody online to give

55:03 them a virtual applause of pat to thank

55:07 you very much for coming to speak to us

55:11 all right thank you thank you very much

55:13 love to do this again